Hospice | Hank Dunn

Compassionate, informed advice about healthcare decision making

Archive for the ‘Hospice’ Category

25 Years for This?

Posted June 6, 2023 by [email protected]

[Note: I wrote this 25 years ago, reprinted here.]

June 3, 1998

This morning was little different at the office than other mornings. I am on the West Team of the Loudoun Region of the Hospice of Northern Virginia. The West Team occupies one room on the second floor of a two-story townhouse office in Leesburg.

Hank at Grief Camp for Children, 1998

Now, get this picture. On the West Team are five nurses, three social workers and one chaplain. In our room are six desks and five phones. No desks are assigned. First-come, first-served. We do not spend a lot of time in the office because we mainly are on the road visiting patients. Yet, most of us start our day there. Can you see where this is going?

I got there a little late today and I was lucky. I got a desk but, alas, it was the one without the phone. It does have a view — into the back yards of townhouses. I am close to my colleagues — Kelly was about two feet to my left and Pam equidistant to my right.

We all talked about Nelia, who had to pull her hair back because she was going to see Sara who didn’t like Nelia’s hair falling in her face as she cared for Sara. We are part of each other’s conversations, each other’s space, each other’s work lives.

Ordained June 3, 1973

Hank’s ordination Bible, 1973

It struck me this morning, and I announced to my friends at work, I was ordained to the gospel ministry twenty-five years ago today. It took place at the St. Matthews Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky on the same weekend as my graduation from seminary. The pastor who led the service left Louisville to pastor the largest church in North Carolina. He called me a year later and asked if I would come to be his youth minister. I didn’t. He eventually left the ministry. Something about an affair. Last I heard he was selling cars.

And me? After twenty-five years in the ministry? I have made it all the way to — sharing phones, sharing desks, views of townhouse backyards and having to turn in a time sheet every day with my documentation or I don’t get paid.

“Success” in the ministry

Hank (right) with seminary friends. In this photo are two future seminary presidents, one future pastor and one future hospice chaplain.

This is unlike one of my best friends during seminary days who went on to get a Ph.D. from Cambridge and is now president of the largest seminary in the world. Others from our class pastor big churches. I report to the senior social worker who reports to a vice president who reports to a president who reports to a board of directors. I am pretty far down on the food chain.

Here I am, a fifty-year-old, making less than many new college graduates earn. I have come all this way in the ministry, following my call only to find myself doing what any seminary student could do. I don’t know. I’m not feeling sorry for myself. I was just struck with the irony of the celebration of the 25th anniversary of my ordination and having to borrow a phone to make a call.

I think probably my classmates and I all imagined as we left seminary that in twenty-five years, we would have a private office with a secretary or at least a phone. That’s how we keep score in our society — how much money I make; how much of the trappings of success do I have, like a beautiful office; how many employees I supervise; or, what kind of car I drive.

Less is more

But, you know — this lack of having an office is so much better. I have had to narrow my essential papers down to two notebooks that I can carry anywhere. If I had an office, I would have piles of clutter everywhere. And not having an office says to me my work is not at a desk anyway — it is with the people — and sick and dying people at that.

I think I remember something Jesus said about foxes having holes, yet the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head. I guess Jesus didn’t have an office either.

Hank

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Chaplain Hank Dunn is the author of Hard Choices for Loving People: CPR, Feeding Tubes, Palliative Care, Comfort Measures and the Patient with a Serious Illness and Light in the Shadows. Together they have sold over 4 million copies. You can purchase his books at hankdunn.com or on Amazon.

In Hospice, Jimmy Carter is NOT Giving Up On…

Posted February 24, 2023 by [email protected]

As I write this on February 24^th, former president Jimmy Carter is at home under hospice care.

The popular story is that Carter had a failed presidency, but post-White House, he was the most successful ex-president ever. Now, 42 years after suffering a landslide defeat to Ronald Reagan, some have changed the first part of that narrative by seeing strength in his single term in office.

Place: Savelugu, Ghana, Date: Feb. 8, 2007, Credit: The Carter Center

In his years after leaving Washington DC, Carter traveled the world serving the poor by bringing healthcare to underserved areas and building houses. His work also included building democracies by helping nations hold free and fair elections. Oh yeah — when he was home in Plains, Georgia, he also taught Sunday school at the Baptist church.

I expected the media to perpetuate a hospice misconception — one of my pet peeves — and they did not disappoint. On ABC World News Tonight this past Monday, David Muir read the teleprompter, “Carter will forgo medical intervention receiving hospice care at home.” I felt like yelling at the TV, “Hospice care IS a medical intervention.” But I didn’t.

Even the announcement of this news from the Carter Center alluded to this mistaken belief. “After a series of short hospital stays, former U.S. President Jimmy Carter today decided to spend his remaining time at home with his family and receive hospice care instead of additional medical intervention.”

Here is what this unfortunate wording insinuates: You seek medical care for a cure. You give up medical care and choose hospice care when you are dying.

Hospice care is one of the best medical interventions you can have. Hospice focuses on the patient, not the disease. The goal is to comfort by any medical means necessary. Hospice care also concentrates on supporting the family as well as the patient.

Place: Austin, Texas, Date: 2014, Credit: LBJ Library

The Carter Center’s announcement also reveals how so many people turn to hospice “After a series of short hospital stays.” I don’t know if these hospital stays were for treatment of the former President’s cancer or if he had another fall. Often when a patient is aging, frail, and seriously ill, patients and their families will eventually conclude, “No more trips to the hospital.”

This is how it should be. There is nothing wrong with seeking medical intervention at the hospital when needed. I also know that some people go to the hospital to die, not wanting to burden the family by dying at home. But most people say they would rather die at home with their family gathered around them if given a choice.

Thank you again, Mr. Carter, for showing us a way to peace.

Cover photo: Place: Nasarawa North, Nigeria; Feb. 15, 2007; Credit: The Carter Center

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Does Hospice Hasten Death? Some say “yes”— Most say “no”

Posted November 23, 2022 by [email protected]

Boy, was I blindsided?

I posted a quote from a study that examined the general public’s understanding of hospice on my Hard Choices for Loving People Facebook page. 30% of the respondents said they felt hospice hastens death. My Facebook post got hundreds of likes and comments, a lot of traffic for my humble page. I had no idea this would engender such a strong response.

“This morphine is wonderful”

Misconceptions can be based on misconceptions. When people hear that a friend is receiving morphine, they automatically think death is near. Not necessarily. Because of this close association of morphine with death and the association of getting on morphine in hospice, many assume that’s what hospice does — hastens death. Not so. Morphine controls pain and relaxes breathing.

I had an elderly patient once who was dying of respiratory failure. She was so short of breath that it was a major chore for her to move from her bed to a chair. She got great relief from morphine which she took for months before dying. She told me once, “I’ve always been opposed to drugs, but this morphine is wonderful.”

The coincidence of death after morphine

Many of the respondents to my post who agreed that “hospice hastens death” told stories of family members going on hospice and dying soon after. Why should this surprise us? Hospice requires that a patient is within six months of dying, although the average patient is only on hospice for two weeks.

I am sure it is just a coincidence that a patient receives a dose of morphine and dies shortly after. The family then thinks, “she died because they gave her morphine.” She did not. She was on hospice because she was dying, and she just happened to take her last breath after taking morphine.

No incentive for a hospice to hasten death

It makes no sense that hospice would want to hasten a patient’s death. The more days the patient is on hospice, the more reimbursement the hospice receives. It is totally against their financial interest to hasten death.

Hospices also want to make sure their patients are as pain-free as possible. Families of hospice patients fill out surveys after the death of their person. They rate the hospice on pain control, among other items.

So, yes, hospices use morphine to keep patients comfortable, not hasten death. They want to have the patient as long as a natural dying process will allow, and they want favorable survey results.

The research is clear; patients live longer on hospice

Many studies confirm that hospice patients live longer than nonhospice patients suffering from the same disease. One study looked at dementia patients. On average, the patients on hospice lived longer than those who never entered a hospice program.

Another study looked at five different kinds of cancer and congestive heart failure. Once again, the patients who were under hospice care lived longer than the nonhospice patients.

So, rest easy. If you have a life-limiting illness and want to live longer with a better quality of life, go into hospice as soon as possible.

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She Fasted to Hasten Death — VSED

Posted October 27, 2022 by [email protected]

Rosemary Bowen was not terminally ill. She hastened her death by fasting. It took seven days.

Ten states and the District of Columbia allow for “medical aid in dying” (MAID). In those jurisdictions, terminally ill people with six months or less prognosis can get a prescription for a lethal medication in order to hasten their deaths. But what about patients not in one of these states or those whose life expectancy is greater than six months? VSED is an option.

Voluntarily Stopping Eating and Drinking (VSED) can be practiced by those seeking an earlier death. It’s what Rosemary did.

Rosemary Bowen, at 94, was living independently. She said she had had a wonderful life and did not look forward to a long, slow decline toward death. For years, she had been telling her children, “That her life would not be worth living if she had to depend on caretakers to feed her, dress her, and take her to the toilet.” Then, it happened. She fractured her back and went to rehab but was unable to live independently. That was enough for her.

Rosemary asked her daughter to video her so she could show others how to take control of their dying with VSED. The 16-minute video is available on YouTube.

VSED is a legal and, in my view, a morally acceptable way to end one’s life. It is based on several established principles in medical ethics. Affirming “autonomy” we allow patients to make decisions to reject any medical treatment — even treatments that could potentially save one’s life. Also, medically-supplied nutrition and hydration (for example, by a feeding tube) have long been understood to be a treatment that could be refused.

What Rosemary did was take these one step further as she choose to refuse food and water. She did this basing her decision on her own values:

She valued independence above all else. Being dependent on others was an unacceptable quality of life.
She did not want to be a burden on her family.
She did not want to go the route of many of her friends who spent years declining in assisted living or nursing homes, facing one medical setback after another.

The importance of medical support during the process

Do not try this without medical support. Rosemary was able to get a hospice to care for her in her last days. Palliative care is also available to ease burdensome symptoms like pain and thirst. See “VSED Resources Northwest” for help with choosing this option.

“I am leaving life with great joy,” she says in the video. “I can’t tell you how content I am. I recommend it highly to do it this way.… The price of staying alive is having to live without quality and joy.… I feel so privileged to be exiting life like this and think of all the people who are wringing their hands and saying if only God would take you and all they need to do is give God a little help by holding back eating and drinking.”

At one point in the video, she is on the phone saying goodbye to friend. As she signs off, she says, “I’ll see you in heaven.”

Indeed.

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On The Other Hand, “I don’t want to die at home.”

Posted June 8, 2022 by [email protected]

Conventional wisdom says, “A good death is at home with my family gathered around me.”

An alternative view says, “I don’t want to die at home.”

How many times have we seen in an obituary, “He died peacefully at home with his family gathered around him.” Families wear this as a badge of honor. They provided the best of care and met the patient’s wishes to remain at home.

Home is generally considered the preferred place to die. For the first time in generations, more people are dying at home than in the hospital*. I have seen some studies that consider dying at home, as opposed to dying in the hospital, as a “good outcome.”

“Not so fast, my friend.”

“Not so fast, my friend,” as Lee Corso would say on College Game Day. Many people die away from home by choice. As I said in a previous blog, there are some people who just feel more comfortable dying in the hospital. Some families do not want to live in a home where a family member died.

I have a friend who is in his 70s and his preference is to die away from home. He is in a second marriage, this time to a widow. He does not want to put his wife through the caregiving burden again.

Besides, he told me, he has so far paid for long term care insurance for years and would hate for all that money to go to waste. With the insurance, he is prepared financially to live for years in assisted living or a nursing home. “I will not put her through that again,” he said.

*See a recent article in the New England Journal of Medicine, “Where Americans Die — Is There Really ‘No Place Like Home’?”

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Cover Photo by Zac Gudakov on Unsplash

Not much has changed in 40 years — My radio interview

Posted April 28, 2022 by [email protected]

Are people more willing to have a conversation about end-of-life planning today than they were in the 1980s? That was Jeanne McCusker’s opening question as she interviewed me for her weekly program, “A Graceful Life.” What was I to say?

Jean McCusker, host of “A Graceful Life”

I had to admit, “Not much has changed.”

Why? Why, in almost 40 years, has not much changed about end-of-life conversations?

Dying is very personal. You only die once. Although you may get some experience making healthcare decisions for others, like your parents, that is still limited experience. Every end of life is unique. We may have made great strides toward facilitating more peaceful deaths, but each person still faces their death anew.

Hospice and advance directives have not guaranteed peaceful deaths

I do think healthcare professionals and healthcare systems are better today. Take hospice, for example. Medicare started the hospice benefit in 1982. Since then, hospices have grown exponentially. Now, almost everyone knows stories of good hospice deaths. About half of the people who die on Medicare receive hospice care.

Sadly, if you dig down into those numbers, over one-quarter of those on hospice were there less than a week. In other words, they waited until the “last minute” to receive this vital service. Hospice professionals know it is hard to provide the best comfort-focused end-of-life care in less than a week.

Another change in the last 40 years has been the increased use of advance directive documents like living wills and durable powers of attorney for healthcare. About half the adult population now has such papers.

Again, all this paper has not improved how well we die. An important article in JAMA last fall questioned whether the emphasis on these documents has led to improvements in end-of-life care. Healthcare professionals might want to listen to a recent GeriPal podcast on this very topic. Just having a piece of paper does not guarantee a peaceful death.

I came to the end of the interview repeating what I often say, “End-of-life decisions, for patients and families, are mainly emotional and spiritual. The big question is, ‘Can I let go?’” THAT truth has not changed. Letting go and letting be can still be difficult.

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Charlie and His Last Days in Hospice

Posted January 17, 2022 by [email protected]

Katie meets Charlie on her 9th birthday

Charlie was born on October 4, 2007. The Feast of St. Francis. A bookend.

He recently came to his last days, loved, and surrounded by family. We didn’t use the word at the time, but he had a “hospice death.” My heart is so grateful.

Charlie grew with our family. He was a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, a gift to our daughter, Katie, for her ninth birthday. Good friends raved about their Cavalier and their breeder. We didn’t know what it took to own and raise a dog, and we were sucked in. It sounded so fun.

The breeder required that the adopting family have someone at home during the day. After making a “social work” home visit, she approved us. Of course, she received a hefty fee, which we gladly paid.

Charlie took to sleeping with humans

“Charlie” was not a very creative name, but it just seemed to fit a male King Charles Spaniel. At first, we crated him at night. After weeks of barking, he finally settled into his crate and his place at home. Until…

Our good friend, Roxanne, took Charlie in while we traveled. In her house, dogs slept with humans. Charlie would never again spend the night in a crate.

There is something very endearing about sleeping with a dog. Charlie would push up against my body or between my wife and me. He would snore and shift his position in the night.

Charlie joined Katie in Oxford her second year at Ole Miss, where he supported her during roommate issues and dating cycles. Their deep bond reached new depths. A dog just loves unconditionally.

In a freak accident, Charlie broke his hip and required surgery. Katie and Charlie made it through those days together, and forever one of his hind legs stuck out to the side. It was quite loveable to see when he sat on his haunches, one leg akimbo.

Charlie goes to Washington

High five on Katie’s graduation from college

After graduation, Katie moved to Arlington, Virginia, with Charlie and eventually took a job on Capitol Hill. Long days, especially when the Senate was in session, made keeping Charlie with her impossible. I picked him up last September, and we drove the 900 miles back to Oxford. He was the best road trip buddy. I will miss that.

Like I heard from so many of my hospice families, there were many signs that the end was approaching, but we didn’t think of it until after he died. Arthritis was setting in, and we gave him a daily pain pill. We noticed that he had become deaf. No more did he cock his head to the side when we spoke to him. (The way he used to do that was the best.)

Charlie made one last kayak trip to the swamp

Charlie’s last wilderness trip

I made one last kayak trip with Charlie in October. I featured him in my “Hank’s Deep Thoughts” video filmed that day. It was about how dogs practice mindfulness naturally when humans have to work at it. Charlie has hiked and camped and canoed and road tripped. This crisp October morning was his last wilderness outing.

The first of November, he had some serious intestinal issues, and we took him to the vet. With a change in diet and some meds, he stopped going outside hourly all night long. We thought we had settled into a “new normal.” But we were settling into his last days.

Katie was home for Thanksgiving, and all seemed normal. On Tuesday, November 30, it all changed. His eating and drinking fell off. He stopped walking. For days, I held him up as he took a few bites of food or sips of water. His legs would not support him to poop or pee. We knew this was the end.

A mother’s intuition brought Katie home for one last visit

On Sunday afternoon, my wife and I were pulling into the Walmart parking lot, and she blurted out, “Katie has to come home tonight.” It was a mother’s flash of insight for her soon-to-be grieving daughter. She called Katie and told her to get to National airport and get on a plane. I picked her up in Memphis with Charlie a few hours later. They slept together on our bedroom floor that night before she returned to D.C., Monday. In the car on the way to the Memphis airport, she “Snapped” a photo to friends, “my last photo I’ll ever take with my baby.” Indeed, it was.

Three days before dying a comfortable death at home

We kept Charlie comfortable. He neither ate nor drank all day. He could not stand. We called the vet, but he was out of town. It was just as well. We wanted to avoid anything that might make his passing painful, like needle sticks. This was hospice. Comfort care and just love. We were spared having to decide to put him down. He died peacefully on our bed Monday afternoon.

It was December 6, 2021. The Feast of St. Nicolas. A bookend.

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Me: “I’m the chaplain.” Patient: “Oh God NO!”

Posted December 9, 2021 by [email protected]

I started our first meeting as I have hundreds of times before and since, “I’m Hank. I’m the chaplain.”

The response from our new hospice patient took me aback, “Oh God, NO!”

One of the great things about being a chaplain is that, generally, people are glad to see you.

…Let me restate that: People are not glad that they are in hospice and need to see a chaplain. People who are seriously ill and dying are usually pleased to see the chaplain. My standard greeting on a first meeting is, “I am glad to meet you but sorry for what has brought us together.”

An invitation to revisit my experience as chaplain

A recent “GeriPal Podcast” has caused me to reflect on my years as a healthcare chaplain. That’s “GeriPal,” as in geriatrics and palliative care. “Spiritual Care in Palliative Care” is discussed by three chaplain educators and trainers and the two physician hosts.

Years ago, by chance, I became part of an experiment to find out how people actually felt about the prospect of seeing a hospice chaplain. I was the only chaplain working out of the Loudoun/Western Fairfax office of the Hospice of Northern Virginia.

When a new patient came into our service, the admitting nurse would ask the patient or family, “Would you like to see the chaplain?” About 30% said, “Yes.” Even at that low rate, my caseload was getting too much for me to cover adequately.

Then, something very fortuitous happened. We merged with another hospice, and suddenly, we had another chaplain to cover the whole eastern half of the region.

Now, we were looking to find a way to increase the caseload to fill this new abundance of chaplain hours. We changed from a question (“Would you like to see the chaplain?”) to a simple statement from the admitting nurse — “The chaplain will be calling to set up an appointment in a few days.” Bingo! We went from seeing 30% of the patients to seeing more than 75% overnight.

Why would so many people go from saying “No” to a question to so willingly accepting a call from a chaplain?

There are all kinds of reasons people said “No” to the question. Perhaps saying “Yes” implied, “I am not spiritual enough and need help.” Or people think of chaplains as “religious” and “I am not religious.” Or maybe accepting a visit from the hospice chaplain means, “I don’t think my pastor is good enough.”

Or, maybe it’s the reason the man who said, “Oh God NO!” had when I introduced myself. I asked him, “Why did you respond like that?” He immediately said, “I don’t want to die.”

Oh my goodness. He was equating meeting the chaplain as meaning he is going to die. In his mind, you only see the chaplain when you are dying. In truth, to be admitted to hospice, he had to acknowledge that his physician was estimating that he had only six months to live. Perhaps, he had seen too many movies with a chaplain escorting a prisoner to the gas chamber or a chaplain comforting a dying soldier.

I used that first visit to assure the man he didn’t have to die just yet. I told him people flunk out of hospice all the time by their condition improving. In my mind, I could explore his fear of death in a future visit. But it was not to be.

He had another stroke and never spoke another word. His pastor and I could provide general words of comfort and encouragement in the face of the fear of death, but we had no idea what he was thinking.

So, people refuse to see the chaplain because seeing the chaplain means, “I am dying.” The ill-founded logic goes, “Asking to see the chaplain means I am dying. I don’t want to die. Therefore, I will refuse the chaplain visits and will not die.”

I wish it were that simple.

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“Do Nothing” and “Last Minute Care”…Oh my!

Posted May 20, 2019 by kbrachle

There is a lot of misinformation out there about palliative care and hospice. I just read an interesting blog post. In it, Dr. Cynthia X. Pan describes how she entered “palliative care” in Google Translate and got Chinese characters back. She then translated those characters back into English, and it came back: “do nothing care.”

Wait… there’s more. She did the same thing with “hospice” and it came back as “last minute care.”

This not just a problem with Google Translate or the Chinese language. A lot of people think this about these very appropriate and helpful medical care approaches. I remember back in my nursing home chaplain days when I was just getting my start talking to patients and families about “No CPR” orders I learned an early lesson.

Families and patients hear, “No Care” when you say “No CPR.” They might say, “You mean when mom is dying you are going to just do NOTHING!”

We do lots for dying patients

So, I started leading the conversation with “We do lots for dying patients. We keep them clean and dry. If they are having a hard time breathing, we clear their airway and give them oxygen. We give them pain medications. You can be here to comfort your mom, even get up in bed with her. We just are not going to beat on her chest when her heart stops. That is what the ‘No CPR’ order is about.”

But like Google translator many people hear, “palliative care” and think “do nothing care.” Palliative care is very aggressive keeping a patient comfortable and meeting social and spiritual needs.

Likewise, so many people think hospice is for the last day or two of life, even though Medicare offers to cover a patient for six months (or more). Late referrals are a real problem in hospice. We do our best work if we have, at least, weeks if not months to care for a patient. More time means better pain control, getting the most appropriate equipment into the home, more time for social and spiritual support.

So help me get the word out there. Palliative care is LOTS of care and hospice care is MONTHS of care.

Update: Google Translate seems to have fixed both translations. Progress!

Is Alzheimer’s a Terminal Disease?

Posted October 5, 2015 by kbrachle

I say yes.

I have sold over 3 million copies of my book Hard Choices for Loving People: CPR, Artificial Feeding, Comfort Care, and the Patient with a Life-Threatening Disease. Only once, in the 25 years since the First Edition came out, I received a complaint from a reader who took issue with my claim that Alzheimer’s Disease is a terminal disease.

They told me, “You don’t die from Alzheimer’s. You die from something else like pneumonia, or a stroke, or cancer.”

Advanced dementia leads to what finally takes the patient

But I say, in most cases, the advanced dementia leads to what finally takes the patient. For example, pneumonia is a very common cause of death for these people. The end stage of Alzheimer’s is marked by increased eating difficulties and increased frequency of fevers. Getting food or fluid in the lungs can lead to pneumonia that can lead to death. 50% of advanced dementia patients who are hospitalized for pneumonia or a fractured hip are dead within six months.

There is even a recognizable “end stage” of this disease. Persons in the last phase of Alzheimer’s qualify for hospice benefits under Medicare. Families and physicians often modify the goals of medicine for advanced dementia patients. It is not unusual for a family to decline the use of antibiotics to treat pneumonia. This is an accepted standard of care.

It is helpful to think of this being considered terminal

In my view it is helpful for people to think in terms of this condition being considered terminal. You think in terms of how to best keep the patient comfortable rather than curing everything that comes along. It encourages everyone to do the emotional and spiritual work to prepare for dying.

Photo by Aron Visuals on Unsplash

Archive for the ‘Hospice’ Category

25 Years for This?

Ordained June 3, 1973

“Success” in the ministry

Less is more

In Hospice, Jimmy Carter is NOT Giving Up On…

Does Hospice Hasten Death? Some say “yes”— Most say “no”

“This morphine is wonderful”

The coincidence of death after morphine

No incentive for a hospice to hasten death

The research is clear; patients live longer on hospice

She Fasted to Hasten Death — VSED

The importance of medical support during the process

On The Other Hand, “I don’t want to die at home.”

“Not so fast, my friend.”

Not much has changed in 40 years — My radio interview

Charlie and His Last Days in Hospice

Charlie took to sleeping with humans

Charlie goes to Washington

Charlie made one last kayak trip to the swamp

A mother’s intuition brought Katie home for one last visit

Me: “I’m the chaplain.” Patient: “Oh God NO!”

An invitation to revisit my experience as chaplain

Why would so many people go from saying “No” to a question to so willingly accepting a call from a chaplain?

“Do Nothing” and “Last Minute Care”…Oh my!

We do lots for dying patients

Is Alzheimer’s a Terminal Disease?

Advanced dementia leads to what finally takes the patient

It is helpful to think of this being considered terminal

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